Who Should Win?

Martian Manhunter

This is a close match, and I mean it. Silver Surfer supporters have good arguments. This isn’t one of those “if the other character wins, it’s bs” episodes. I see and respect Norrin arguments, but lets play this through to see why I support J’onn.

The match begins. They both spot each other, they both decide the other needs to die, they’re holding nothing back, bell rings.

Norrin’s wincon is to turn all of Martian Manhuter’s atoms into oreos. The transmutation and reality warping facets of the power cosmic are his best bet here since J’onn can just phase through and regenerate from physical and energy attacks. And though J’onn has ways to mitigate transmutation (more on that later) he doesn’t have a way to make himself completely immune to it. He can delay being turned into oreos, but he can’t stop it. MM is often thought of as in the same ballpark as Superman, Green Lantern, and Flash, because he has a zillion different abilities, but he’s got quite a few blindspots on his power chart compared to the big 3. The big 3 all have feats where they endure atomic manipulation and even reality manipulation, but not J’onn. In that regard, he’s more like Wonder Woman in that he sits in the B-grade above Batman but below the big 3.

Martian Manhunter’s wincon is to go into Norrin’s brain and warp and break it to the point he thinks Georgia elections aren’t rigged. Telepathy is his greatest power by far. Even though MM never used telepathy all that much in the silver age (you win a cookie if you can find a scene in Gardner Fox’s Justice League where he uses it to do more than talk to people. I think he used his Martian breath (yes, like super breath) more than his telepathy in the silver age) after COIE writers, Ostrander in particular, made him the telepath god of telepath mountain. Norrin can match most of J’onn’s powers and use powers J’onn can’t. He can use the power cosmic to grant himself laser eyes, shape shifting, regeneration, phasing, superspeed, superstrength, even Martian breath if he wanted it, and all these powers would be at more or less J’onn’s level, but the exception here is telepathy. While Norrin is telepathic, his telepathy is nowhere close to the breadth, variability, and strength of J’onn’s own. If J’onn wins, it’s going to be through telepathy.

So the fight starts. Who gets off the first attack? I’d say MM. Surfer has always been fast for a Marvel character, but the kind of the speed he does is “travel across the galaxy,” not “think faster than an attosecond” like J’onn did in Dark Metal. Of course, given Swank rules, they’ll likely both be given infinite speed because they both scale to speedsters. But even then, I’d say that at equal speed, someone who just needs to think to get his telepathy attack off works faster than a guy who has to first channel the power cosmic then will it to reach out and grab his opponent. Galactus Heralds don’t innately have the Power Cosmic welling up within them. It’s like ki in Dragon Ball, they got to channel it for it to work. It’s why Firelord got his ass beat by Spidey. He didn’t channel enough Galactus juice. It’s why Silver Surfer infamously got cold cocked by Mexicans. Norrin can easily summon up the Power Cosmic to make himself invincible to anything short of an exploding galaxy, but if his “shields are down” he’s just a silver dude. There’s an extra, slight step to Norrin’s attack, so in terms of quickdraw, I would say J’onn could get his attack off first. But we’re talking extremely marginal differences in speed, however, so let’s assume for the sake of argument they get their attacks off first.

J’onn has answers to getting his atoms scrambled–sort of. If he’s standing on something (though he might not be, if this fight takes place in outer space), he can absorb mass to get back whatever’s been turned into oreos. More reliably, he can use his phasing. Power Cosmic energy can’t hit what it passes through. He also has rather esoteric abilities that can help him. In Nu 52, it was revealed that J’onn keeps clones of himself around the planet that he can absorb back into himself or activate as sleeper agents. It’s lame, but its a thing. Norrin might have to kill them to kill “all” of J’onn, and that would take a little time, but it’s a pretty esoteric thing and it might not even get into the battle. I mean, hey, they didn’t give Black Adam the pre-Crisis rules for his powers, so why should we expect J’onn to get the Nu 52 rules? And by the same token, J’onn had the pre-Crisis ability to turn into Superman. And by turn into Superman, I mean a Superman with all powers, including his impressive resistance to transmutation and reality alteration. J’onn could turn the fight into pre-Crisis Superman vs Silver Surfer and spoiler, Superman wins that one easily. Don’t believe it happened? Go read Flash 175, the second “Flash vs Superman race.” And you should read it anyway, it was the story that Morrison later retooled for The Human Race, a contender for thae GOAT Flash story. The caveat for this power is twofold–1, it’s very obscure and let’s be real here, the researchers don’t read comics, and 2, J’onn was exposed to gold kryptonite in the same story in which he turned into Superman which not only robbed him of Superman’s powers but robbed him from ever gaining them again by turning into Superman–which raises the question of whether or not gold k radiation persists in Martian Manhunter’s cells. Could be rob Superman of his powers by hugging him tightly? Do you remember how Superman was weakened during the bronze age because of the Sand Superman thing? I would have had it revealed that residual gold k radiation from MM weakened him. I think that would have been a lot less convoluted than the Sand Superman. Oh well. I’ll file that away under “alternate universe ideas too cool for DC to ever use.’

J’onn’s answers outside turning into Superman, however, aren’t permanent solutions. They can help J’onn survive an initial attack, but Norrin can just expand his power over any given area and lock-on to all of J’onn’s atoms. That shouldn’t be too hard for him to do. It would take a little time and effort, but it’s totally manageable. J’onn scatters himself as intangible, phased molecules around the galaxy? Norrin just expands the Power Cosmic over the galaxy and locks on to each individual atom. It’s possible, it’ll just take time and focus. Norrin has, to my knowledge, never explicitly effected a phasing opponent, his phasing feats consist of making himself phase through like walls and stuff, but the Power Cosmic cuts across dimensions and neighboring planes of reality. No explanation has ever been given for how J’onn phases through things. It might work like Vision’s phasing in that he decreases his density to the point he slips molecular bonds, or it could work like Phantom Girl’s phasing in that he shunts his mass across dimensions. But however he makes it happen, Norrin can use the Power Cosmic to whip up an answer. “Oh, my transmutation energies went through him? I’ll just modify them so that they don’t.”

So J’onn has ways to stave of oreofication, but only for a little time. But how does Norrin hold up to telepathic attacks?

Not well.

Norrin has good mental defenses, true. Take his origin story. Galactus had him under a mental block that warped his morality and made him a-okay with sacrificing untold bazillions to the giant purple planet eater, but Alicia Masters was able to remind him of his true self and he was able to break that mental block. But it takes Norrin time, effort, and sometimes even a little help to resist these mental effects, and usually only after they’ve made him act silly for a considerable amount of time.

Let’s Talk About Norrin vs Psychics

Let’s let at Norrin’s history of mental warfare.

In his origin (which actually wasn’t told in The Coming of Galactus. In that story, there was no mention of Norrin Radd or Zen-La and it was implied that Galactus created Silver Surfer ex nihilo. What we know now as Silver Surfer’s origin came about through several retcons), Galactus put mental blocks in Norrin’s head that lasted for aeons until Alicia Masters helped him break through them. Galactus could have likely reapplied these mental blocks at will at with only a little effort.

In Silver Surfer 4, Loki uses mental suggestion to push Norrin into fighting Thor.

In Marvel Comics Presents 1, a generic space parasite attaches itself to Silver Surfer and forces him to experience incredible fear by erasing his memory of his powers and history, effectively transforming him back to Norrin Radd pre-Galactus. Norrin is able to overcome this mental invasion only when he glimpses his board, which reminds him of who he truly is.

In Infinity Gauntlet, Norrin is helpless before Thanos’ mind probe (Thanos is using the mind gem) and when Norrin starts to resist, Thanos says he’s done playing nice and just mind rapes Norrin.

In Infinity Crusade, the Goddess (basically an evil and female version of Adam Warlock, but I guess I could have just said female version) uses a collection of cosmic cubes to mind slave several characters, including Silver Surfer, and he remains her slave until he snaps out of it. It’s not clear exactly how long he remained her slave, but a day or two is probably a good estimate. When he snaps out of it, he gets put on his knees by a mental bolt from Moon Dragon equipped with the mind gem (she was under the Goddess’ thrall as well) before she sends Firelord to beat him into submission, which didn’t work out so well, because Firelord is the second biggest herald jobber after Terrax. The classic “elemental” herald tier list goes Silver Surfer (because he has the most experience with the Power Cosmic and has used it in far more  > Air Walker (because being a robot gives him a slight boost over other heralds and because he has the Bow of Gabriel) > Nova (she represents love, by the way, as in quintessence, the 5th element, not fire, I’m surprised how many people don’t get that) > Firelord (got his proud ass beat by Spidey) > Terrax (jobed to Space Knights and the New Warriors).

In Silver Surfer vs Dracula (guess what that story was about?), Surfer is mind controlled through a ritual conducted by anti-Dracula cultists who want Surfer to kill Dracula for them. Surfer is then compelled to fight Dracula until the Tomb of Dracula heroes, Rachel van Helsing, Quincy Harker, et al, break up the ritual. Don’t feel too bad for the anti-Dracula cultists though, because they were also evil, they just wanted Dracula out of the way because he was their rival.

In Silver Surfer 143, Marvel’s littlest tyrant, the Psycho Man (the big guy you see is actually a shell), who’s specialty is, as you might guess psychic attacks that usually take the form of stimulating the portions of the brain responsible for FEAR, DOUBT, and HATE, drops Norrin with a space probe that looks like it came from the Matrix which, of course, attacks his mind. When Norrin comes to in the next issue, Psycho Man tries to torture him with illusions of Shala Bal, but Norrin resists, absorbs the psycho energies of Psycho Man’s machines, and gives him a karmic taste of his own FEAR, DOUBT, and HATE. It’s worth mentioning that Psycho Man’s fondest desire since he first showed up in Fantastic Four was to create a planet-wide version of his FEAR, DOUBT, and HATE tech, meaning he’s a sub-planet level psychic at most.

The question of Martian Manhunter vs Silver Surfer is essentially this–can Martian Manhunter’s psychic abilities be compared to the psychic attacks which have hypnotized, stunned, and mind controlled Silver Surfer? It’s very important to point out that J’onn doesn’t need to completely thrall Norrin to win. He doesn’t mean to finger snap full control over Norrin’s mind out the gate. Simply putting in a mental block ensures a win. A simple YOU DON’T REALLY WANT TO KILL ME works. A telepathic illusion also ensures a win. If Norrin blows all his energy fighting an illusion of (insert cosmic bad guy here) and then J’onn gives him a Superman level rabbit punch while his guard is down that’s game. Even just getting Norrin to drop to his knees, stunned from a bolt of psychic energy like in the Moon Dragon example, is enough for J’onn to win, as the Power Cosmic works off intent and will. A split second of clouded perception means getting pulped at light speed.

So is Martian Manhunter comparable to stuff that’s warped Norrin’s mind? Absolutely. In Dark Metal, be put a mental block in Mr. Mxy’s mind so that if he tried to use any of his powers, he would say his name backwards and go back to the 5th Dimension. In World War 3, he breached the telepathic defenses of Mageddon, a 4th world telepathic weapon, though the experience was incredibly taxing for him and nearly killed him. It is worth noting that Mageddon’s telepathy was such a danger that he effortlessly steamrolled Wonderworld, a higher universe of archetypal heroes that had trained specifically to counter Mageddon, by getting them to kill each other, and that Heaven evacuated the universe and gave it up as lost. In JLA 64, he puts the Hindu God Vishnu to sleep, and while it was a weird version of Vishnu (long story, but he was created by the lasso of truth snapping which caused truth as a concept to unravel, so Vishnu…doesn’t actually exist in DC? Ouch, Hindus. Yahweh real, Vishnu fake, that’s got to suck) it was still a being that threatened to uncreate the universe if he woke up.

I would say that given all these examples J’onn has got the telepathic muscle to, at the very least, break Norrin’s concentration for a split second, and that’s all he needs to win.

But What About When J’onn Went AHHHHHHHHH?

You know how Superman gets his ass kicked by the big rocky space monster of the day yet in the next story he’s doing big cosmic stuff? The reason we have this discrepancy is because Superman has been written by a small army of writers since the 40’s, each with their own take on his personality and power levels, but the in-story excuse for this discrepancy is that Superman tanks. A lot.

J’onn has the same deal with his telepathy.

Seriously.

I got two great examples of this. The first is Despero, who went from being a gadget using space alien in the vein of Kanjar Ro with a hypnotic third eye to a roided out team buster at the tail end of the bronze age Justice League of America thanks to the mystical “Flame of Py’tar.” This new Despero (who actually got in the old Justice League Task Force game!)one shot J’onn with a telepathic attack and then when they had their rematch, J’onn could only win by using his special one-time-only mayavana telepathic technique on him. But the in the Nu 52 Justice League, Despero shows back up and fights J’onn again and J’onn tells him that in their previous fight he held back but isn’t going to do so anymore and one shots him by burning out his neurons. How his bronze age fight with Despero was still cannon in Nu 52, I don’t know, you don’t know, the writers don’t know, and the editors don’t know, but it is, and that’s what matters.

My second example comes from The Rock of Ages and Trial By Fire. In The Rock of Ages, J’onn uses his telepathy to stop Joker before he can use the big 4th world plot device to destroy the world. He makes Joker sane, but states that he can only do it “for a moment.” That seems pretty limiting on J’onn’s telepathy, but then in Trial By Fire a few years later when J’onn accidentally unleashes his primal instincts and becomes Fernus (long story, but Fernus isn’t J’onn on any kind of buff, he’s just J’onn but he likes hurting people) and Fernus goes on to mindbreak the Joker into a sobbing, remorseful wreck, and this alteration to Joker’s mind lasts until Fernus is defeated and all his telepathic effects reverse.

Oh, and I’m not going to talk about Raven vs Phoenix much here (that comes later), but Raven once had an AHHHHHHHH moment trying to assault Joker with bad feelings. Fernus just mind broke Joker. Like he didn’t even try, he just mind broke him as a side effect of mind breaking all of Arkham Asylum. If Joker> Raven and Raven = The combined telepathic power of Marvel, yeah, you can probably see where this is going.

But the takeaway here is that J’onn’s telepathy is like Superman’s strength. Most of the time, he’s not using it to its fullest potential.

Who Will Win?

Oh, Norrin is going to make J’onn like the Spoony One’s dog–an oreo and dead.

There’s too many signs pointing to a Norrin win.

1. The preview had Norrin effortlessly resist J’onn’s telepathy. That either signifies that he’s going to break out more advanced techniques like the mayavana later on in the fight or, more likely, that the telepathic wincon is off the table.
2. A few months ago, before this fight was even announced, an anon who was quite possibly a researcher argued vehemently for Norrin no-selling J’onn’s telepathy, and what’s the first thing that happens in the fight? Norrin no-sells J’onn’s telepathy.
3. The fight is called “mind over matter” hinting that the lesser telepath wins, because having the greater telepath win in this case is too obvious.
4. The exact circumstances of the fight are muddled, but it seems like J’onn is trying to pry Norrin’s secrets from his mind. I’m anticipating something stupid like J’onn stumbling upon a memory of Galactus eating a planet and going AHHHHHHH over it, which is dumb for several reasons. Death Battle rules means the fighters have general knowledge of each other, meaning J’onn knows what any generic 616 civie knows–that Norrin was the herald of Galactus and Galactus has been snacking on planets since time began. And J’onn was able to stalemate the Specter when bonded to him, as in his desire to not take life balanced the Specter’s desire to take life resulting in them locking up like a statue. The Specter constantly feels the sins of the universe. J’onn shouldn’t AHHHHHHHH off a memory of a planet snack, but I bet it’s going to happen.
5. The big one–Speedy’s meltdown where he stated that fights are decided in a vacuum and don’t take previous results into the figuring sure seems interesting now that, just two episodes after Phoenix vs Raven, we got a match that the green guy should win going off the result of that episode, doesn’t it?
6. If J’onn was going to win through telepathy, they would probably have had him do the mayavana thing on Norrin–but they already had the Naruto guy do it to Darth Vader and I don’t seem them repeating endings like that.

What About Phoenix vs Raven?

If they’re even the slightest bit consistent with Raven vs Phoenix, J’onn should mindwipe Norrin as soon as the bell sounds. You don’t even need to work hard to set up the scaling chain. Just check this out:

–Raven’s telepathy was equal to the Phoenix Force within the White Hot Room, which is the sum and total of life force and greatest telepathic power within the Marvel multiverse.

–Raven’s telepathy was graded on the following scaling chain: Raven > the HIVE Queen (I like her being called Queen Bee better, but whatever) > Superman > Parallax the fear entity who was said to have multiverse level telepathy. Now put aside how specious is is to give Superman multiverse level psy shields off resisting fear, that’s the chain they worked with in the episode.

So the scaling chain set in the episode was Raven=The strongest telepath in the Marvel multiverse. For J’onn to mindstomp Norrin, he doesn’t need to match Raven, he just needs to be in the ballpark. And he is. He’s put the mind whammy on “multiverse telepathy shields” Superman dozens of time. He’s forced his way into the Specter’s mind (Hal Jordan Specter at that) and placed mental blocks in Mr. Mxy’s mind. And you know how Raven’s big telepathic rating was because she shielded her teammates from the HIVE Queen and compared it to Trigon’s influence? HIVE Queen was a minion of Brainiac. He’s the source of her power, and J’onn shielded himself and his teammates from Brainiac’s telepathy when he telepathically assimilated all of Earth in Action Comics volume 2, 34.

And if you want to play dirty, that global assimilation implies that Raven herself and the Titans were put under Brainiac’s thrall, meaning J’onn is not only comparable to Raven psionically but superior.

The fight is open and shut–if we take Phoenix and Raven as something they’ll cite as evidence. But I don’t think they will. While the researches did cite Zatanna vs Scarlet Witch to explain the Phoenix vs Raven result, Speedy’s little meltdown about each result being made in a vacuum coupled with how fast this episode is coming leads me to believe they’re not going to touch on Raven scaling, they aren’t going to even bring it up. Raven scaling is like Judy for the episode, they’re not going to talk about it, they aren’t going to talk about it at all.

Closing Remarks

Jiren vs Martian Manhunter would have been so much better.

Read Ernst, Morton and Glass: Manesologists.

Norrin is ducking the obvious Green Lantern matchup, and if you have to ask why it’s more thematic than Silver Surfer vs Martian Manhunter, you just don’t get it, and you’ll never get it.

Please DB, don’t have J’onn lose to Galactus memories. That’s so stupid. If you want a cool mindscape moment, have Norrin break out of the mayavana paradise illusion by summoning Galatus to eat the illusion Zenn-La so he turns him back into the Surfer.

Speedy is a beta male. 

Oreos are imposter ice cream sandwiches.