Introduction
I know what a lot of you are thinking–Otto, why did it take so darn long for you to post this?
Well. the original idea was that it would be posted in three parts, but part three was going slow on my end gathering up non-Death Battle related questions for Jim. So it’s not Jim’s fault, it’s mine for waiting this long to just go ahead and post. And as some of you know, I recently started a new job at a charter school and whew, has it been a handful!
Also, if you haven’t checked out Jim’s website, Journey to the West Research.com, you need to. If you’re just here to find out how strong Monkey really is, he’s got great articles on his feats and powers. If you thought Monkey was really cool in the episode and would like to know more about where he comes from, he’s got all the information you could want on Journey to the West, its historical and cultural context, and its lasting impact on the human imagination.
I thought for sure that Monkey was a 16th century take on Hanuman, but no, it turns out that he has legit roots in Chinese folklore. Jim knows his stuff. He’s a true scholar, and its such a sadness that Death Battle has yet to give him his due.
But without further ado, let’s settle in for a nice chat with Jim McClanahan.
Interview 1
1. Tell us a little about yourself.
Otto:
To start out, tell us a little about yourself. How would you describe yourself? Anthropologist? Sinologist? Educator?
Jim:
I have a degree in Anthropology and minors in Chinese and art history. I should point out from the beginning, though, that I’m not a professional scholar associated with any university. I’m just an independent researcher, but I’m acknowledged by some respected scholars as an expert in certain Journey to the West-related subjects, one of which is Sun Wukong’s modern worship in Chinese folk religion. I’m very proud of this.
I study everything from literature to religion, but I consider myself more of a historian.
2. What drove you to study Journey to the West?
Otto:
What drove you to study Journey to the West?
Jim:
I first read the W. J. F. Jenner translation while serving in the military (c. 2001) and instantly fell in love with Monkey’s adventures. But my foray into research didn’t happen until roughly 2012 when the revised second edition of Anthony C. Yu’s famous translation was released. It’s packed full of juicy scholarly notes and sources that made me want to learn more about the novel. This ignited a fiery interest in the history and influences of the novel.
3. Does Monkey have infinite strength?
Otto:
To get into the Death Battle episode, I’ll try and avoid spoilers here since I don’t think you’ve seen the episode yet (it released today for Rooster Teeth members). There is controversy involving comparing Hercules holding up the firmament to Monkey holding up Mt. Sumeru, Emei, and Tai. Death Battle believes that this means Monkey has infinite strength. Does Monkey have infinite strength? Is there no physical limit, no weight he can’t lift?
Jim:
You’ll find that many claims about Sun Wukong’s abilities are touted by people who have never read the novel. Their exposure is either via stories from their family or (more commonly) stuff they’ve read on the internet or saw in a video game, comic book, cartoon, movie, etc.
Monkey does not have infinite strength. It’s important to point out that his strength is not consistent throughout the entire novel. One minute he can easily hold the central axis of the cosmos while running at great speeds and the next he can’t even break through the front door of a demon’s mountain stronghold. This disparity is likely thanks to the various episodes coalescing from individual oral tales told over the centuries. In short, Monkey was as strong as the story needed him to be. Not being able to get to his kidnapped master serves to heighten the drama.
There are at least three instances where Sun is incapable of picking up something. First, in chapter 8, Monkey attempts to move Five Elements Mountain after his imprisonment, but the Buddha puts a talisman on top that holds it down. He can’t get out until his new master, the monk, removes the talisman for him.
Second, in chapter 33, after easily carrying two mountains while running, he is literally crushed under Mt. Tai, causing blood to spurt out of his orifices. He can’t get out until the mountain god withdraws his magic. But this can be explained by the fact that Mt. Tai is considered the heaviest thing imaginable in Chinese philosophy. This native Chinese concept is separate from the foreign Indian Buddhist Sumeru (I’ll discuss this conflict below). I should also point out that a religious “precious scroll” (baojuan) from the 1560s mentions Monkey being trapped under Mt. Tai instead of Five Elements Mountain. This might have also contributed to the mountain overwhelming him in the novel.
And third, in chapter 42, he fails to pick up the Bodhisattva Guanyin’s holy vase, which is filled with all the water in the world. She tells him: “You may be strong, but you don’t possess the strength of upholding the ocean. That’s why you cannot pick up the vase.” This is a prime example of Monkey’s strength not being consistent.
4. How big is Mt. Sumeru?
Otto:
I have further questions about Mt. Sumeru. It is a massive mountain, 80,000 yojana tall I believe? I’m not sure if this measure is given in Journey to the West but would that be what would be assumed by the author and readership of the time?
Jim:
The height of Mt. Sumeru varies, but one very popular source, the Abhidharmakośa (4th to 5th-century) states that it is 160,000 yojanas tall, with 80,000 below the great ocean and 80,000 above (this is probably why some sources only state the height of the top half). The yojana is generally considered eight miles (12.87 km), or the distance that someone can travel on an ox-drawn cart in a single day. But estimates also vary between four and ten miles (6.43 and 16.09 km). If we stick with eight miles, then the mountain would be an astounding 1,280,000 miles (2,059,960.32 km) high.
Journey to the West gives no measurements for the mountain, but the very mention of Sumeru would have been understood by the readership to denote the central axis of the Buddhist universe.
5. Mt. Sumeru vs the Firmament.
Otto:
Mt. Sumeru and the Greek firmament are very similar, but I don’t believe the sky (the Akasha, correct?) sun, stars, and moon were said to rest upon it like objects would on a table. They instead floated around the mountain. I believe I read somewhere that night was believed to be when the sun set behind Mt. Sumeru. The point I’m examining here is that with the Greek firmament, it needed to be held up by Atlas or Hercules, otherwise everything in the sky would fall down like a giant chocolate chip cookie where the chocolate chips are stars and the cookie bronze sky, but Mt. Sumeru can be moved without the the stars falling because its the cosmic axis, not the cosmic pillar. From what I’ve read of the mountain scene in Journey to the West, Mt. Sumeru flies up through the sky (which it wouldn’t be able to do if the sky was already on it) and then lands on Monkey’s shoulder without Indra up in Svarga heaven falling, or anything for that matter. Am I wrong to think that? Was it implied that things were falling from heaven during the scene?
Jim:
The Chinese also believed that the heavens were a dome and the earth was flat. Admittedly, though, my knowledge of Chinese astronomical folk knowledge is lacking. I’m not sure if the stars were considered fixed or not. But I do know that Journey to the West represents the sun as both a heavenly body and an anthropomorphic deity. Regarding the former, I recall poems mentioning powerful beings having the ability to pull the sun and moon from the sky. Regarding the latter, the sun and the planets are referred to as the “Nine Luminaries” (Jiuyao), astronomical deities imported from India. Monkey single handedly defeats them all in combat during his rebellion.
I also know of a couple of stories explaining how ancient China was plagued by numerous suns. One ancient legend sees a famous archer shooting the superfluous signs out of the sky, revealing them to be crows. Another, from the Song dynasty, sees the god Erlang chase after and eventually crush the suns with two mountains carried on poles. It is this legend that influenced Monkey’s feat in chapter 33.
I don’t recall the aforementioned mountains having names, but those from the Journey to the West episode are Mt. Sumeru and Mt. Emei. As you know, Sumeru was considered the axis of the Buddhist cosmos. Emei, according to legend, was the mountain from which Buddhism spread upon entering China. Therefore, I suggest Monkey’s feat serves as a metaphor for him literally holding up Buddhism since he’s protecting the scripture-seeking monk on the road to India. But, as mentioned above, Sun is eventually overwhelmed by a third mountain, Mt. Tai. Unlike the first two, this mountain represents native Chinese culture, and it was actually worshiped and sacrificed to by emperors of the past. I read this as a conflict between foreign Buddhism and native Daoism. This might reference the historical struggle for dynastic power by both religions. The metaphor might also explain why the novel doesn’t mention the universe shaking or the stars and planets falling.
Jim’s Note on DJTiki
Jim:
Otto,
By the way, have you seen the Death Battle character analysis on the ultraguy blog? The Sun Wukong researcher did a pretty thorough job of listing his strengths and weaknesses, even providing evidence for each bit of info. But I’m kind of embarrassed for the Hercules researcher. Their article is much, much shorter and doesn’t provide any evidence. I have a feeling that this reflects on the outcome of the episode.
Best regards,
Jim
Interview 2
1. Concerning Strength.
Otto:
They gave Monkey infinite strength off holding up Mt. Sumeru. they also gave Hercules infinite strength off holding up the firmament. Let’s talk about their lifting strength, as that seems to be a very big point of controversy within the Internet vs sphere.
Now, as a member of the Herc camp, giving Hercules infinite strength is somewhat conjectural, but I feel, not unfounded depending on the interpretation used. On my blog, I gave the firmament as conservatively, a metal dome of indeterminate thickness that has to go at least 43,000,000 miles by Eratosthenes reckoning up to hold the sun. But the ancients didn’t conceive of the Universe as we do. Eratosthenes knew the sun was at least 43,000,000 miles up, but he didn’t know it was a ball of plasma dwarfing the Earth by an order of magnitude. They wouldn’t have, if someone asked them how big the sky was, given a number. They didn’t know a number to give or how to even arrive at one. They would have said, if they were Aristotle, “The sky is a finite sphere, and outside of it is nothing, not space, but nothing” and if they were Epicurus or Lucretius or another Atomist, they would have said “The sky is filled with infinite atoms and contains infinite worlds.” How much Herc lifted when he lifted the sky, therefore, depends on what philosopher we listen to along the many centuries of Hercules worship in the ancient world–and complicating matters further is that several philosophers disputed the gods entirely, including Hercules. A Hercules with infinite strength is also supported by him wrestling Zeus, who was Zeus Hypistos, and would be considered by most Classical Greeks as the supreme power of their worldview analogous to the Buddha, or Yahweh. Of course, there are also interpretations who have far less than infinite strength. There are accounts where he, for instance, loses a finger to the Nemean lion (which was given its own burial!) He wouldn’t have lost a finger if he had infinite strength.
My apologies if that was long-winded, but I wanted to be sure my point was well articulated.
Jim:
No need to apologize. Thorough is good. But I should point out that, as a rule, I’m against scaling mythic feats to modern, scientific concepts of the universe. Doing that removes characters from their mythic/religious context, turning them into artificial constructs, thereby making scaling (no matter the logic behind it) inaccurate. This is why I don’t take part in VS discussions. But I chose to enter this particular Death Battle discussion in order to offer accurate info about Sun Wukong.
Otto:
As someone from the Monkey camp, would you say that holding up Mt. Sumeru gives Monkey infinite strength? Is Mt. Sumeru infinite?
Jim:
It makes him strong but not infinitely so. As I previously explained, the novel depicts his strength inconsistently. You’ll remember the chapter 41 episode that I mentioned where Monkey is unable to lift Guanyin’s holy vase because it contains an ocean full of water. But there may be an underlying religious reason for this. For instance, while Sun can’t lift it, the goddess does so easily, as does her holy sea turtle, who transports it on its back. Most importantly, the story suggests that Guanyin will send her holy disciple, the Dragon Girl, to carry it for him. So, this could mean that Sun, at this point in the story, lacks the Buddhist spiritual attainments necessary to pick up the vase. “Dharma Power” (fali, 法力) is considered the penultimate power in the novel’s universal hierarchy, even outclassing that wielded by high Daoist deities.
Otto:
I hazard a guess that it is not, as while its measures are prodigious, they are still enumerated and finite, and from my readings there are several heavens above Mt. Sumeru completely unsupported such as the Yama heaven. And from what you’ve told me, while Mt. Sumeru is the center of Buddhist cosmology, more than Buddhist cosmology is at play within Journey to the West. Mt. Tai is not Buddhist, and it crushing Monkey represents, if I understand you right, the Buddhist Monkey “paying his dues” as it were to earlier, pre-Buddhist traditions.
Jim:
You are correct that Mt. Sumeru doesn’t support all of the various heavens, nor the space or sky that envelopes the Buddhist cosmos.
But you might be confusing different concepts regarding mountains from the novel. Monkey is trapped under Five Elements Mountain as punishment for rebelling against heaven and trying to usurp the Jade Emperor’s throne. This is separate from the mountain-lifting episode. I suggest that the act of Monkey carrying Mt. Sumeru and Mt. Emei, mountains important to the philosophy and history of Buddhism, is a metaphor for the character “upholding” the (foreign) religion as he’s protecting the monk on the way to India to retrieve Buddhist scriptures. That Mt. Tai, a symbol of native Chinese culture and religion, ultimately overwhelms Sun’s great strength could be a reference to the historical struggle for political power between Buddhism and Daoism, as well as an episode from religious “precious scroll” literature in which the character is trapped beneath said mountain. It’s a complicated issue that I’m still exploring.
Otto:
Would you agree or disagree that while Mt. Sumeru and the celestial spheres are similar and hold similar roles in their respective mythologies, Mt. Sumeru is but a part of the Buddhist heavens while the celestial spheres are the Greek heavens?
Jim:
There appears to be a fundamental difference between the Greek and Buddhist concepts of the sky. The former is propped up by a titan/mountain/pillars, while the latter isn’t supported by Mt. Sumeru. The Buddhist sky appears to encircle all of the Buddhist cosmos. Both views obviously conflict with modern views of the universe, making it difficult to scale anything.
Otto:
And the big question–Do you think Hercules is stronger than Monkey, or is Monkey stronger?
Jim:
Unfortunately, I can’t answer this question as I don’t know enough about Greek concepts of the sky. As you mentioned, it varies in size according to the philosopher. I feel it’s better to be overly cautious in the face of making an error. But I could be persuaded if I learned more about the subject. I’m very much open to book references.
2. Concerning Speed
Otto:
How did you feel about the speed calculations they used for Monkey via the Buddha’s palm?
As a member of the Herc camp, I have no problem conceding that Monkey is generally depicted as much more agile and quick. Hercules had trouble catching the Hind. Hercules rode in the Argo with the other Argonauts. He doesn’t fly or have anything like the cloud somersault. If I take any umbrage with Death Battle giving Monkey the advantage in speed, it is purely from methodological issues (a previous episode involved giving a character speed equivalent to the amount of force they could produce).
The scene with Monkey and the Buddha is very complex and loaded with a lot of metaphorical meaning. I found it odd that they interpreted it to mean he moved the distance of the real-life observable universe when they previously established that their respective heavens are infinite. Under their logic, Monkey should have infinite speed, like teleportation, he can just go where he wants instantly.
Could you elaborate on the scene with Buddha’s palm? Have far would Monkey have traveled if he traveled to the ends of the heaven? How do we even figure the scale of Buddhist heaven? Did they give a number for how large the heavens were or did they like the Greeks say “It’s either incalculably finite or incalculably infinite.”
Jim:
There are two underlying religious themes in this episode. The first involves the great distance that Monkey can travel in a single leap, 108,000 li (33,554 mi / 54,000 km). Shao (2006) notes that this skill is based on a philosophical metaphor from the Fifth Chan Patriarch Huineng’s Platform Sutra. The Chan Master explains that the common trope of the Buddha’s paradise being separated from the world of man by 108,000 li is based on a combination of the “Ten Evils” (Shi’e, 十惡) and “Eight Wrongs” (Baxie, 八邪) of Buddhism (see section III here). Those who rid themselves of these spiritual flaws will achieve enlightenment and thus arrive instantly at the Buddha’s paradise (Shao, 2006, p. 718; Huineng & Cleary, 1998, pp. 26-27). This makes the cloud-somersault not only a metaphor for enlightenment but also instantaneous travel.
The second involves the Buddha’s relationship to the material realm. Sadakata (1997) writes: “[Sun’s feat] reflects the world of the Flower Garland Sutra, where every phenomenon is located within the buddha-world” (p. 155). He goes on to discuss the Cosmic Buddha Vairochana, noting how Buddhist art from all over the world depicts the myriad Buddhas as his emanations. One Javanese example features images of the Five Dhyani Buddhas encircling a stupa dedicated to Vairochana, thereby “express[ing] the Mahayana idea that the buddhas emanate from Mahavairocana and penetrate the universe, that the ‘one’ is at the same time the ‘many’” (Sadakata, 1997, pp. 156-157). Therefore, in essence, the Buddha’s palm in the novel represents the universe.
Given the underlying metaphors, I think this again would make it hard to scale to modern views of the universe.
3. Concerning The Giant Constellation Forms Of Hercules And Monkey
Otto:
That was probably the oddest scene for me simply because I’m not sure what they were trying to depict. While it is true that Hercules had an immortal and mortal halves, it was never depicted as a giant star Hercules controlling a mortal Hercules like an RC car. Was there anything like that for Monkey in Journey to the West? Was there a giant star Monkey controlling a smaller mortal Monkey? Was that how his immortality worked?
Jim:
The literary figure does have what I call a “Cosmic Body or Form,” but it’s simply a titanic form that he takes on while fighting powerful, giant foes. It’s not a giant constellation.
In Chinese folk religion, Sun is usually portrayed as an armored warrior wielding a staff. He is rarely worshiped and portrayed as a Buddha, but when this form appears on altars, he’s depicted as a serene figure wearing robes and sitting on a lotus throne. So, I’m not sure where they got the constellation stuff.
4. Concerning Mortality And Immortality
Otto:
Personally, I don’t think this fight would end in anyone’s death as I don’t think either character can truly die. Laozi seemed to believe that Monkey could be killed by burning him to ash but as you pointed out, that was conjecture on his part and he was made stronger regardless. I think the fight would end with Monkey being tossed across the cosmos, but still managing to sneak the fruit away from Hercules.
Do you think that Hydra poison, as Death Battle conjectured, could have killed Monkey?
Jim:
I’m not sure if the hydra poison could soak into his hard skin. For example, after Monkey’s capture by heaven, they fail to execute him:
They then slashed him with a scimitar, hewed him with an ax, stabbed him with a spear, and hacked him with a sword, but they could not hurt his body in any way. Next, the Star Spirit of the South Pole ordered the various deities of the Fire Department to burn him with fire, but that, too, had little effect. The gods of the Thunder Department were then ordered to strike him with thunderbolts [lei xie ding, 雷屑釘, lit: “nails of thunder”], but not a single one of his hairs was destroyed (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 1, p. 188)
This near invincibility follows him throughout the rest of the novel, even allowing him to take direct sword strikes to the head with no issue.
It would be easier to suggest that the hydra venom could be absorbed into his skin if something similar happens in the novel, but I can’t think of any. And the scorpion episode is different as she pierces his head with her stinger. I believe the only reason that she was able to do so is because she became super strong from (as mentioned in the episode) listening to the Buddha’s sermons in the Western Paradise. Refer back to what I wrote about dharma power above.
Jim:
Could Monkey have killed Hercules’ immortal half? Has he ever killed someone that immortal and that powerful?
Jim:
I haven’t read widely enough from Greek myth to say whether or not Sun could have killed Hercules’ immortal half. But I am aware of the story of Dionysus being chopped up and later resurrected.
To my knowledge, Monkey only kills demons in the story. He doesn’t kill any divine beings. At worst, he hurts them in battle and they retreat. Even still, this is an amazing feat for a small primate that only studied cultivation and martial arts for three years.
While I’m on the subject, I should also explain the complicated status of Sun’s immortality. Many people would be surprised to learn that he’s not a true immortal. For instance, the Buddha and the Jade Emperor both refer to him as a “Bogus Immortal” (yaoxian, 妖仙), bogus in the sense that he hasn’t yet finished the cultivation process. This is related to what I previously explained about Zhang Boduan’s two-step process to true transcendence. Monkey won’t be truly immortal until he achieves Buddha-nature. He is simply long-lived and extremely hard to kill. The various levels of immortality attributed to him don’t, as far as I can tell, make him more immortal than his peers. They simply make his body more and more durable. And the novel suggests that, apart from a surplus of extra heads, the skill of the 72 changes may also give him extra lives like a video game. But this “respawning” is never officially demonstrated.
5. Concerning Buddhahood
Otto:
Apparently, though there were talks early on of Hercules’ god half and Monkey’s Buddhahood not being factored in, they were. Let’s talk about Monkey’s Buddhahood. It’s a very tricky concept. Would it have been represented as a giant star Monkey controlling a tiny Monkey?
On my blog, you mentioned that attaining Buddhahood made Monkey both eternal and removed him from the wheel of Samsara. On first glance that seems counter intuitive. How can Monkey be both eternal and yet no longer reincarnate? Is it like the Greek godhood where he no longer reincarnates but remains as he is forever? I had assumed that the goal of Nirvana was to achieve nonexistence. Is that not the case for the kind of Buddhism that informed Journey to the West?
Jim:
Focused Buddhist studies is outside of my usual area of research, though I have read a lot about it (most of it being over my head). Nirvana is sometimes likened to a candle being blown out, the flame representing the desires that cause suffering and entrapment in Samsara. Once one realizes that desire is the source of suffering (via the Four Noble Truths), they achieve nirvana and are thus freed from the wheel of rebirth. Buddhism makes a distinction between Nirvana before and after death. The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism (2014) explains:
The first type is the “nirvāna with remainder” (SOPADHIŚESANIRVĀNA), sometimes interpreted as the “nirvāna associated with the kleśas.” This is the state of nirvāna achieved prior to death, where the “remainder” refers to the mind and body of this final existence. This is the nirvāna achieved by the Buddha under the BODHI TREE. However, the inertia of the karman that had led to this present life was still operating and would continue to do so until his death. Thus, his mind and body during the remainder of his final lifetime were what was left over after he realized nirvāna. The second type is referred to as the “nirvāna without remainder” (ANUPADHIŚESANIRVĀNA or NIRUPADHIŚESANIRVĀNA), sometimes interpreted as the “nirvāna of the skandhas.” This is the nirvāna achieved at death, in which the causes of all future existence have been extinguished, bringing the chain of causation of both the physical form and consciousness to an end and leaving nothing remaining to be reborn. This is also called “final nirvāna” (parinirvāna), and it is what the Buddha achieved at the time of his demise at KUŚINAGARĪ (p. 590).
What they mean by “remainder” is that the Buddha’s final existence will stay in the illusory world of Samsara until his death, after which he will be free from it upon passing. This is essentially what you described above: “he no longer reincarnates but remains as he is forever”.
The end of JTTW mentions countless Buddhas being part of the current Buddha’s retinue in the Western Paradise. And while nihilistic readings of the religion might view it as leading to complete nothingness, Buddhism views existence and nonexistence as the same thing.
6. Concerning Various Odds And Ends
Otto:
Overall, what did you think of the episode?
Jim:
I was underwhelmed by the ending. It ended too soon, and I didn’t like how seemingly easy it was to kill Hercules. But I’ve since learned that the show has budgetary constraints on fight length and animation style. Even still, I think they should have received more resources for a longer, more thrilling fight.
Otto:
Do you feel they did a good job representing Monkey and Journey to the West?
Jim:
Although the design wasn’t exactly novel accurate, his characterization is spot on. Sun always plays tricks on people. My favorite trick happens in chapter 46 when Monkey convinces three evil animal spirits disguised as Daoist priests that a jug of piss is really an immortality-bestowing alchemical elixir. They all drink and comment on the odd taste. Ha!
Otto:
Do you think Monkey would beat Hercules in a fight? Why or why not?
Jim:
I honestly don’t know. In an ideal scenario, they would come to respect each other’s skills and part as bond brothers. But I mention a way to possibly kill Hercules’ mortal half on the analysis blog. In my scenario, Sun seemingly disappears, but he actually turns into an insect and flies into Hercules’ mouth and crawls into his stomach. There, Monkey beats him up from the inside using the iron staff or even his fists. Then he instantly takes on his 100,000-foot (30,480 m) tall cosmic form, causing Hercules’ mortal body to explode. This “attack from within” tactic appears in chapters 59, 75, and 82 of JTTW, as well as chapter 11 of the late-13th-century version of the story cycle. But the cosmic form is never used in tandem with it. I guess the real question is: “Would Hercules’ mortal body be too tough and cause Sun’s expanding form to be crushed from within, or would Monkey’s growth overpower the Greek hero’s vessel, causing it to explode?”
Otto:
If you could change anything about how they presented Monkey, from the calculations they used to how he was presented as a character, what would you change?
Jim:
I would depict Monkey as being bald and wearing monk’s robes and his trademark tiger skin kilt. And also, I would have made his iron staff black as the novel describes it that way. I won’t comment on any calculations as I’ve already stated my opinion on scaling.
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